Is there a USA market for this $149 FCC certified unlocked GSM / UMTS dual sim phone?

[Tony]

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I’ve noticed there are some very experienced USA members here. I really need your help to figure out if there is a market for these dual sim phones in USA.

Old timers will know that GSM based dual sim phones (with two slots for two sim cards - effectively two-phones-in-one, with each sim card on simultaneous stand-by) are a dime-a-dozen throughout the world.

Except in USA of course. That’s mainly because effectively no dual sim phones were FCC certified for legal sale in USA (and because, unlike the rest of the world, about half the USA market is CDMA via Verizon and Sprint, etc).

That leaves mainly users of AT&T and T-Mobile and the various pre-paid sim card sellers as candidates for GSM dual sim phones in USA.

Although a long time coming, several models of properly certified FCC dual sim phones do now exist. I have been asked by the Asian manufacturer (a large and well known respected company) to assess their market potential (if any) in USA.

That’s quite a handful for me as I know little about the USA phone market other than a few basics.

I do know that everywhere in the world, people love free phones bundled into carrier plans. Carriers hate dual sim phones because they don’t want an opposition carrier in their phones. However, for dozens of reasons, many people must carry two phones which creates demand for dual sim phones.

Because the big carriers hate dual sim phones, I’m thinking of recommending setting up a network of small USA website phone sellers in conjunction with brick-and-mortar shop sellers like independent phone shops and pre-paid sim card sellers.

Am I on the right track here and are any readers of your good forum interested in being part of establishing dual sim phones in the USA market?

Remember, this is a first in the sense the FCC certification allows dual sim phones to enter the USA mainstream market for the first time.

An example of one model is this really good looking Qwerty Blackberry type housing (not a smart phone) which can be landed on USA shores for about $85 factory cost price suggesting a retail price of about $149:

Dual sim cards; dual stand-by; GSM/UMTS; Qwerty;
• Platform: QSC 6240
• Frequency: GSM850/900/1800/1900Mhz / MTS850/1900/2100Mhz
• Dimension: 112*57*12mm
• Display: 2.4inch, QVGA, 320*240,260K TFT
• T-Flash support (Up to 32GB)
• Battery capacity: 1200mAh
• Phonebook: 1000+SIM
• SMS:500+SIM
• Camera: 2.0M pixels rear +0.3M pixels front
• MP3 / MP4/ JAVA / MMS/ WAP / Bluetooth2.1 / FM radio
• WCDMA DL: 384Kbps, UL: 384Kbps
• Warranty: 12 months, with “instant swap” of new phone for faulty phone

(An FCC certified Android dual sim is in the works for later this year)

Any criticisms, pros and cons or suggestions would be much appreciated.

[weekilter]

Originally Posted by Tony

.
I’ve noticed there are some very experienced USA members here. I really need your help to figure out if there is a market for these dual sim phones in USA.

Old timers will know that GSM based dual sim phones (with two slots for two sim cards - effectively two-phones-in-one, with each sim card on simultaneous stand-by) are a dime-a-dozen throughout the world.

Except in USA of course. That’s mainly because effectively no dual sim phones were FCC certified for legal sale in USA (and because, unlike the rest of the world, about half the USA market is CDMA via Verizon and Sprint, etc).

That leaves mainly users of AT&T and T-Mobile and the various pre-paid sim card sellers as candidates for GSM dual sim phones in USA.

Although a long time coming, several models of properly certified FCC dual sim phones do now exist. I have been asked by the Asian manufacturer (a large and well known respected company) to assess their market potential (if any) in USA.

That’s quite a handful for me as I know little about the USA phone market other than a few basics.

I do know that everywhere in the world, people love free phones bundled into carrier plans. Carriers hate dual sim phones because they don’t want an opposition carrier in their phones. However, for dozens of reasons, many people must carry two phones which creates demand for dual sim phones.

Because the big carriers hate dual sim phones, I’m thinking of recommending setting up a network of small USA website phone sellers in conjunction with brick-and-mortar shop sellers like independent phone shops and pre-paid sim card sellers.

Am I on the right track here and are any readers of your good forum interested in being part of establishing dual sim phones in the USA market?

Remember, this is a first in the sense the FCC certification allows dual sim phones to enter the USA mainstream market for the first time.

An example of one model is this really good looking Qwerty Blackberry type housing (not a smart phone) which can be landed on USA shores for about $85 factory cost price suggesting a retail price of about $149:

Dual sim cards; dual stand-by; GSM/UMTS; Qwerty;
• Platform: QSC 6240
• Frequency: GSM850/900/1800/1900Mhz / MTS850/1900/2100Mhz
• Dimension: 112*57*12mm
• Display: 2.4inch, QVGA, 320*240,260K TFT
• T-Flash support (Up to 32GB)
• Battery capacity: 1200mAh
• Phonebook: 1000+SIM
• SMS:500+SIM
• Camera: 2.0M pixels rear +0.3M pixels front
• MP3 / MP4/ JAVA / MMS/ WAP / Bluetooth2.1 / FM radio
• WCDMA DL: 384Kbps, UL: 384Kbps
• Warranty: 12 months, with “instant swap” of new phone for faulty phone

(An FCC certified Android dual sim is in the works for later this year)

Any criticisms, pros and cons or suggestions would be much appreciated.

One thing that I can think of is that to my knowledge no major manufacturer makes a dual SIM phone. By major I mean Nokia, Sony-Ericsson, HTC, Motorola, etc. make one. I've seen dual SIM phones for sale but never have seen a "name brand" dual SIM phone. Until major manufacturers make one it's never going to be big or mainstream. Even dual SIM phones don't allow you to use them like "line one or line two." The closest thing to two lines on a phone is the "Line two" application on the iPhone.

[rfranzq]

Originally Posted by Tony

Frequency: GSM850/900/1800/1900Mhz / MTS850/1900/2100Mhz

1. Most Americans do not need a dual SIM phone. ..in USA at least.

2. I think people traveling out of the USA might see the wisdom of a dual SIM phone. The hobbyists here are probably the exception. [I have 3 & a quad SIM phone that has frozen on me.]

3. Any chance you can add T-Mobile's 1700Mh band? That there are no phones that can do both AT&T and T-Mobile 3G frequencies is as valuable as a dual SIM phone.

[RTuesday]

There isn't really any need for dual-sim phones within the US, because the number of people who need access to two US GSM networks for any reason is tiny.

There might however be a niche market in the border areas. On the southern border, combining AT&T (or an MVNO) with Mexico's Telcel (has UMTS 850) or Movistar would appeal to some cross-border commuters, although to be honest the market isn't really that sophisticated, most of them just know their minutes go faster when roaming over the border without really having any idea of the true cost. It would need a lot of educating to develop a market, and mostly in Spanish.

On the northern border, again commuters would be a small market but having a number from the "wrong" country while roaming is less of an issue there (because they're both in country code 1).

Even now the US (mass market) still hasn't really grasped that you can get a phone from anybody other than a carrier (contract or prepaid). Unlocked phones are a geek thing, not mainstream.

Rob

[Motel75]

Part of the problem, too, is that roaming on a foreign SIM almost inevitably costs a fortune in the US. For example, in Germany, I always have my Polish phone switched on, frequently my British one, and sometimes my Italian one. If someone calls me on one of these, it costs 17 cents a minute. In the US, the price to receive would be between 81 cents and 2 euro a minute, and substantially more than that to place a call. When I'm in the US, I leave my German phone on, turn my mailbox off, and (unless it's really important) I do not answer it if it rings, but call back from a landline.

FWIW, Samsung makes a dual-SIM phone, but its usefulness is compromised somewhat by being only dual band.

[DRNewcomb]

Originally Posted by rfranzq

3. Any chance you can add T-Mobile's 1700Mh band? That there are no phones that can do both AT&T and T-Mobile 3G frequencies is as valuable as a dual SIM phone.

That was the first thing I noticed. As is, the phone only works on ATT's 3G net in the USA. There are now phones that have both AWS and 850/1900 UMTS. I've seen one Nokia but it is very expensive.

[PhotoJim]

Originally Posted by DRNewcomb

That was the first thing I noticed. As is, the phone only works on ATT's 3G net in the USA. There are now phones that have both AWS and 850/1900 UMTS. I've seen one Nokia but it is very expensive.

The Nokia Nuron has AWS and 850 MHz HSPA. It's missing 1900 MHz though.

[Tony]

Thanks everyone.

This is a really interesting thread. Broadly and as we all know, the big brand phone hardware companies such as Nokia produce only what individual carrier’s want. What’s evolving in this thread is valuable feedback for our boutique manufacturer to deliver something better tuned to real world needs.

Although the potential USA market for dual sim phones is small, just one dual sim per thousand phones is still a big viable market for my guys.

Rfranzq, adding UMTS 1700 to enable either AT&T or T-Mobile 3G is no problem. These phones are produced in only 5,000 production runs. Any run can be changed to fit market needs. Many thanks for pointing it out.

Weekilter - dual sim technology, I know it’s hard to get a grip on this but most dual sim phones could be said to be real “line one or line two”. You can actually receive two calls at the same time (talk to either by pressing a button to switch between callers). Or, even make a second call while already on one call – the same as carrying two separate phones but with the advantage of being able to place one call on hold while talking to the other.

A few dual sim models are second rate in that regard. For example, the dual sim Samsung Duos that Motel175 mentioned has pretty poor dual sim features and is very expensive to boot and as far as I know is not FCC certified (but is CE certified for EU).

Rob, that’s a good point about the Mexico boarder areas. I suppose millions of phone users cross there but just a few thousand unit sales in those areas per year would keep us happy.

I have carefully noted your observation that “Even now the US (mass market) still hasn't really grasped that you can get a phone from anybody other than a carrier (contract or prepaid). Unlocked phones are a geek thing, not mainstream.”

The rest of the world is mostly aware. It’s fascinating to me as an “outsider” that USA is supposed to be the very heart of “free market” liberty, yet when it comes to phones USA is almost a closed shop owned by the carriers and a few big brand phone manufacturers.

Even developing countries don’t operate like that where you find many dozens of different Asian made phone brands (mostly unlocked dual sims) in regions like South America, Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. The carriers in those regions have locked phone plans same as elsewhere but you can buy dual sim unlocked phones pretty near anywhere for connecting to plans or pre-paid sim cards or a combination of both.

There are actually some 500 different phone manufacturing factories in Shenzhen, China (where Apple’s iPads and iPhones are made). They are locked out of the USA market mainly via the FCC certification wrought which costs about $100k for each phone model versus about $10k for CE type certification for the rest of the world – yet the FCC and CE certifications are for pretty near the same health and engineering Standards with same lab tests.

USA pre-paid sim cards?

You good guys have many different sorts of USA pre-paid sim cards in your signature lines.

Would you be good enough to tell me the advantage of having a spread of sim cards like that as I can’t even begin to understand the USA reasoning from my long distance away.

In my neck of the woods, many have different sim cards for example because some are best price at certain times of day or night or to call particular countries or because some are low cost for SMS or because calls are free to same network subscribers – that sort of stuff.

Is it the same for USA?

If so, it might somehow connect with dual sim phones.

Tethering?

It would be pretty easy for my factory to build in apps or whatever for the dual sim phone to tether with tablets. Nokia and the like won’t do that as the carriers want to sell a second plan for iPads and many other makes coming onto the market.

My guys aren’t in bed with the carriers so they can easily in-build work-arounds in production runs to enable an “all you can eat” AT&T or T-Mobile phone plan to be also used for the tablet to save a second plan.

Any mileage in that thought?

[DRNewcomb]

Originally Posted by Tony

The rest of the world is mostly aware. It’s fascinating to me as an “outsider” that USA is supposed to be the very heart of “free market” liberty, yet when it comes to phones USA is almost a closed shop owned by the carriers and a few big brand phone manufacturers.

This is largely due to the fact that, unlike European carriers, US carriers get to pick their technology. The market is pretty well split between CDMA and GSM. With CDMA you pretty well have to use the phone the carrier provides.

You good guys have many different sorts of USA pre-paid sim cards in your signature lines.

Would you be good enough to tell me the advantage of having a spread of sim cards like that as I can’t even begin to understand the USA reasoning from my long distance away.

There's not a great deal of advantage, except perhaps that one may have coverage in places where the other does not. There is no big cost advantage like you find in some countries where it may be much more expensive to make internetwork calls than intranetwork calles.

I have to emphasize that probably less than 1% of US cellular customers even consider using a phone that is not provided by their carrier. Very few ever bother getting their phones unlocked, even when the carrier will give you the code gratis.

[GadgetKen]

Going back to the original premise at the top of the thread there actually is one dual sim phone series I am aware of that is FCC registered. It's the Beyond E-Tech Duet phone series. Got only marginal reviews from CNET and ZDNet. Shouldn't be much competition for a better quality dual-sim phone like the ones suggested above.