Poland: Voda Against National Roaming

[Przemolog]

Originally Posted by Motel75

To be fair to Vodafone, Polkomtel is co-owned by three other Polish companies, none of which have any expertise in mobile telephony, and all of which are state-owned or -controlled.

Your knowledge of the Polish mobile market is quite good . But, a few words of explanation. As to the Polish Polkomtel shareholders - they really are state-owned or -controlled and without "any expertise in mobile telephony". But how could any Polish company have this expertise?. In 1996, when Plus and Era started, the only company of that kind was PTK Centertel operating NMT 450 network. Of course, licenses might be given to 100% foreign owned operators but there were some political obstacles :P.

Originally Posted by Motel75

(Poland's proposed new fourth provider would be another state-run affair; how many other EU countries have a situation like this?).

You mean a GSM 1800 licence for Telekomunikacja Kolejowa (Railway Telecom)? Finally, they didn't take the license :P. The "real" fourth provider is 100% private UMTS-only P4 (which has a GSM roaming agreement with Polkomtel)

Originally Posted by Motel75

They'll probably sell to Vodafone in the end, so the intention of buying TDC's share of Polkomtel was only to collude and sell it on to Vodafone at a profit. It's no wonder Voda is playing hardball. Plus has gone from being the #1 network to being the #3, something which they can't be happy about.

Yes, you're right. A few days ago, Polkomtel CEO said that their strategic goal is to sell Polkomtel to Voda. Anyway, there might be political problems. The currently ruling parties are "Catholic socialists" and they don't like large private property and especially foreign private property. It sounds stupid but I must say they aren't 100% wrong. E.g. selling Polish Telecom to France Telecom resulted in sinking the money obtained for shares in the budget hole, the same high prices and losing a few thousands jobs. It's hard to turn this into a political success :P

[Effendi]

Originally Posted by Motel75

how many other EU countries have a situation like this?

Belarus! But it's not EU!
Anyway as Przemolog said, fortunately there's not anohter statal operator in Poland!

[Motel75]

I agree that TPSA being sold to France Telecom was a very bad idea; FT was itself (and is) another state-run, bureaucratic "national champion" that had nothing really to offer TPSA apart from a French-government-guaranteed cashflow. For many years, Poland had some of the highest telephone prices anywhere, simply because the government avoided introducing competition to "protect" TPSA, even though it ultimately sold it to France.

France's mobile market is overpriced and suffers low penetration and low adoption of features (SMS is not very popular in France) precisely because Orange is so dominant and #2 SFR is seen only as a cash cow by majority owner Vivendi; no doubt Vodafone would liven the market up a lot there if Vivendi would sell it its share for a reasonable price (ie, not the 20 billion euros they once suggested).

Elektrim was an example of a Polish company that did have expertise in this area (and it still has influence in Era, as its consortium with Vivendi (again, same issues) has 51 percent of PTK, and thus can tell T-Mobile what to do).

But the companies that own the rest of Polkomtel have nothing to do with telecommunications (coal, oil, steel); it's just an equity stake for them. In this context, the company would probably be better off in Vodafone's hands; at the very least they might do things such as make it possible to top up an account outside Poland, and end the incredibly stupid policy of having prepaid cards expire rapidly without frequent, relatively expensive topups, which is one of the best ways to lose a customer to the "competition" without winning new ones.

[Przemolog]

Originally Posted by Effendi

Belarus! But it's not EU!
Anyway as Przemolog said, fortunately there's not anohter statal operator in Poland!

Well, I still think that Railway Telecom GSM wasn't quite a bad idea by itself but the declaration of paying about 125 million euros for the licence only was more than sick. At current rates, it's an equivalent of about 1 billion off-net minutes (excluding VAT). And, of course, in fact the state would pay the licence fee to itself :P

[Przemolog]

Originally Posted by Motel75

I agree that TPSA being sold to France Telecom was a very bad idea; FT was itself (and is) another state-run, bureaucratic "national champion" that had nothing really to offer TPSA apart from a French-government-guaranteed cashflow. For many years, Poland had some of the highest telephone prices anywhere, simply because the government avoided introducing competition to "protect" TPSA, even though it ultimately sold it to France.

It's "funny" that selling Polish companies to foreign state owners (like France Telecom or Electricite de France) was called "privatisation":P.
As to prices, basically you're right but those money were used also for modernisation of landline network. Telephone services until early 1990's were horrible here....

Originally Posted by Motel75

Elektrim was an example of a Polish company that did have expertise in this area (and it still has influence in Era, as its consortium with Vivendi (again, same issues) has 51 percent of PTK, and thus can tell T-Mobile what to do).

For at least two years there's a war between T-Mo and Vivendi/Elektrim to takeover PTC. I don't follow the details but it seems that T-Mo will be the winner...

Originally Posted by Motel75

But the companies that own the rest of Polkomtel have nothing to do with telecommunications (coal, oil, steel);

KGHM is copper (and silver) holding (not any steel ). And PSE (power lines operator, 17,56% shares of Polkomtel) has almost 95% shares of Exatel (formerly Telenergo),
a wholesale telecommunications operator.

Originally Posted by Motel75

it's just an equity stake for them. In this context, the company would probably be better off in Vodafone's hands; at the very least they might do things such as make it possible to top up an account outside Poland, and end the incredibly stupid policy of having prepaid cards expire rapidly without frequent, relatively expensive topups, which is one of the best ways to lose a customer to the "competition" without winning new ones.

Yes, buying top-ups in another country is a great feature. But even now, it's possible to top-up Simplus via SMS anywhere - it's necessary to register a credit/debit card to the specific number only...It's the only Polish prepaid with such a feature.
Polkomtel prepaids have the best expiration rules among Polish prepaids. After expiration of incoming calls, a 1-year "waiting period" starts in which no credit is lost and the SIM is theoretically "hybernated" but you can still receive calls. Sami Swoi has an 80 PLN top-up which extends the validity for outgoing calls by 7 months (11,43 PLN/month - the best offer on the market coupled with lowest national rates and free VM).

Of course, things can always be better but please don't tell that Voda would radically improve Plus offer.
Believe me - even now it's a very good offer as for such an underdeveloped country:P. As to prepaids, Plus is the only one in Poland to offer:
- HSCSD
- 3G data transmissions/videocalls
- special SIM with low data rates
- e-mail2sms gateway
- free e-mail account with instant SMS notification
- PushToTalk
- SMS top-ups with direct charging the credit/debit card
- Pay4Me collect calls
- SMS to CDMA networks

[Motel75]

Actually, my complaint about the prepaids is more basic than that. The amount of account activity you get per topup is not very generous, and only PTC allow account validity to accumulate (buy 50 Zl, it adds 3 months; buy another 50 and it goes up to 6 months), but only to a maximum of 1 year. Compare that to, say, 2/3 of Czech operators, where it lasts 1 year or 15 months, typical for most prepaid countries. I realize that the per-minute price, and some of the features, in Poland are very good (I've been a customer of all of them), but there has only been slight movement on this; PTC only introduced cumulative validity about a year ago. (And before Heyah came along, all the prepaid deals were poor value: 1.50 a minute, 60-second billing, and 3 months expiration for 50 Zl.

The problem with the rapid expiration and non-cumulative credit is it discourages new users, who might not be willing to spend 200 Zl per year (at least not at first); in Germany the minimum spend per year is only 20 ?, in Italy as little as 3?, and in the UK and elsewhere basically nothing. Poland has a relatively low penetration rate (even so, nearly 80 percent), but elsewhere the slack has been taken up by prepaid. Polish operators seed the market with super-cheap starter packs, but I'd be surprised if more than a small fraction turn into long-term customers, simply because of the overall cost and frequency of recharges necessary; I know a couple of older people who found it to be "too much trouble" before they had a chance to discover just how useful a mobile phone could be.

I'm not sure the 1-year "receive calls" period is all that useful. When my Orange card (the worst offender) ran out, I put it away for good; the incessant "recharge within three months or lose all your credit forever" was too annoying; what if I was abroad? It's better than total account cancellation, but it's not very friendly, and this kind of pricing policy does little to retain users. Many people in Poland I know are on their fifth or sixth mobile number; there's a very high churn rate, not surprising when each account expires so quickly and long-term customership isn't rewarded. Considering how much operators elsewhere pay to retain customers, this is very surprising.

Sami Swoi has a 7-month account activity for 80 Zl recharge, but again, it isn't cumulative (and their website has no useful features, and their software doesn't work properly, and they let you choose either GPRS or roaming but not both).

FWIW, my Heyah card is maxed out to 1 year (they really do mean 365 days; charge more, and you might even lose a couple of days!).

BTW, you're right, copper not steel. I was writing from memory.

[Przemolog]

Originally Posted by Motel75

Actually, my complaint about the prepaids is more basic than that. The amount of account activity you get per topup is not very generous, and only PTC allow account validity to accumulate (buy 50 Zl, it adds 3 months; buy another 50 and it goes up to 6 months), but only to a maximum of 1 year. Compare that to, say, 2/3 of Czech operators, where it lasts 1 year or 15 months, typical for most prepaid countries. I realize that the per-minute price, and some of the features, in Poland are very good (I've been a customer of all of them), but there has only been slight movement on this; PTC only introduced cumulative validity about a year ago.

OK, but remeber that the only "sure" money operators make on prepaids are those for sold top-ups. No monthly fee, and no warranty that the SIM will be used at least for incoming calls....

Originally Posted by Motel75

(And before Heyah came along, all the prepaid deals were poor value: 1.50 a minute, 60-second billing, and 3 months expiration for 50 Zl.

Postpaids were that bad even longer :P

Originally Posted by Motel75

The problem with the rapid expiration and non-cumulative credit is it discourages new users, who might not be willing to spend 200 Zl per year (at least not at first); in Germany the minimum spend per year is only 20 ?, in Italy as little as 3?, and in the UK and elsewhere basically nothing. Poland has a relatively low penetration rate (even so, nearly 80 percent), but elsewhere the slack has been taken up by prepaid.

200 PLN is much money for many people here but think about alternatives. Postpaid rates are >25 PLN/month expect for the 10 PLN Orange plan (in which no discount packets are available however). The cheapest landline plans also start from 25 PLN but they have horrible rates and no minutes included.

Originally Posted by Motel75

Polish operators seed the market with super-cheap starter packs, but I'd be surprised if more than a small fraction turn into long-term customers, simply because of the overall cost and frequency of recharges necessary;

Well, if you receive much more credit than you pay for a new SIM, what prevents you from applying use-and-dispose policy . Last summer Jedna Idea na Karte SIMs were sold for half the price before rebranding to Orange. This spring first top-up in Tak Tak and Heyah was doubled. Now Mini Start POP gives 12 PLN for 10 PLN paid...

Originally Posted by Motel75

I know a couple of older people who found it to be "too much trouble" before they had a chance to discover just how useful a mobile phone could be.

The problem with older people and mobile phones is often "hardware one" They need large keys and clear displays with large characters and good contrast even more then cheap rates...

Originally Posted by Motel75

It's better than total account cancellation, but it's not very friendly, and this kind of pricing policy does little to retain users. Many people in Poland I know are on their fifth or sixth mobile number; there's a very high churn rate, not surprising when each account expires so quickly and long-term customership isn't rewarded. Considering how much operators elsewhere pay to retain customers, this is very surprising.

Long term customership is rewarded. In Era Tak Tak after 4 months the national rate drops from 0.77 to 0.69 PLN/min and national sms from 0.22 to 0.16 PLN. After 8 months the national rate drops to 0.59 PLN/min. In Orange there's a more typical loyalty programme in which each 1 PLN spent on top-ups is rewarded by 1 point. Each 6 months is rewarded by 300 points. And points can be converted to top-ups at the rates 25 points=1 PLN.
I think that now Polish operators want to make millions of new "virtula" customers (=millions of activated SIMs in drawers or trashbin ) than to really keep them.

Originally Posted by Motel75

Sami Swoi has a 7-month account activity for 80 Zl recharge, but again, it isn't cumulative (and their website has no useful features, and their software doesn't work properly, and they let you choose either GPRS or roaming but not both).

Yes I agree but nothing's perfect
And, I like Sami Swoi website - I appreciate there's no much stupid graphics there and I like green colour .