Hello,

although it has nothing to do with GT-SIM (the original subject of this thread), just my 2 cents regarding this Riiing-discussion: you have to keep in mind that in Liechtenstein, there are two different mobile "routes": the "normal ones", like FL1 (+42379...) and a more expensive one ("+423 663"). As far as I darkly remember, the selling-rates for calls to +423 663 is little bit less than 29 Eurocent. This means, if an operator offers "+423 663" for less than 29 Cent, then he can not cover the charges, he has to pay additionally money, which he does not get back from the caller. When he offers "+423 663" for more than 29 Cent, than he earns. This means, "+423 663" is an international "premium number", more expensive than other mobile numbers. And this is, why Riiing can offer free incoming calls in many countries. Because (usually) the caller is paying the whole termination! Personally, I don't know how Enlinea & Co. can offer their cheap rates to +423 663. In my opinion, they pay more for the call than they get from their customers. If O2 UK has "unclusive minutes" to +423 663, then it is a "mix-calculation" and they hope, that not too many people call there....

Regards,
Klaus Wegener

Yes, I've got different tariffs with one operator for the different FL mobiles, one listed as personal rate, 25p and 27p. I think the 663 number is almost like an Austrian prefix on A1. It may be that some companies (including even BT for a while?) defined this as a landline number as it isn't in the mobiles list.

O2 isn't directly providing the facility, but callthrough numbers that are in the inclusive minutes, and one provider has/had a tariff mistake.

spoke to Orange regarding this and kinda tried to explain them why i was particularly interested in calling +423663 :clap: .... anyways since the guy could not give me a definite answer i asked for them to send a message to the their techinical support team to figure out the pricing...


Anyways according to them it doesnt matter what type of numer it is , as long as it starts with the +423 prefix its charged as 20p/min and if you buy your calling abroad minutes beforehand it drops to 16p/min



<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>Andy </span>sorry to be kinda of offtopic</span> but i was wondering if you could let give me a quick rundown from your research on calling rates for +423 (RIING) and +354 (9mobile)... i am only interested in mobile phone tarriffs for calling those numbers, as i am always running about

+423.663 is NOT a premium number!

It's a normal mobile prefix but some "smart" operators have a extra-fee for that... for example in Europe Budget Telecom has a very cheap price to FL mobiles.
About high prices I think that's only a commercial strategy. Maybe someone is afraid about U-M products and prefer to have high tariff plans to +423.663. Simply.

P.S.: last week I called Effendi on his riiing number from my Orangeclick account... it was a normal national call :)

Well, just to clarify this, here are the rates that Telecom Companies are asking for the termination of +423 663:

Belgacom: 0,34 /min
German Telecom: 0,30
Swisscom: 0,31
Telia Sweden: 0,65
France Telecom: 0,36
Telecom D?veloppement (France): 0,31
Cable&Wireless (UK): 0,32
Telecom Austria: 0,30

The transiting fee is normaly rather low, so the 0,29 for United Mobile as terminating fee seems to be realistic.

Any service for less than the terminating fee must be very unstable.
Bouygues Telecom e.g. has closed all phone calls to +423 !

Hello,

thanks for confirming, what I tried to explain earlier in that thread. The expression "international premium number" might not be very exact, but it could explain what I meant: due to high termination fee, UML is able to offer free incoming calls in many countries.

And by the way: in German Television, there was also missuse with "+423663" numbers. Some TV call-in shows used such kind of number, but they "catched" the call before it reached Liechtenstein (?) and got the high termination-fee. That's the reason, why German Telekom had blocked "+423663" two times this year. So it is a kind of "premium number"!

Regards,
Klaus

In the USA, AT&T long distance which used to be the standard has a $1/month foreign long distance plan.....calls to Liechtenstein are 10?/US per minute and the surcharge to Liechtenstein mobile is 1?/minute making a total of 11?/minute which is by far the cheapest rate for any mobiles in Europe....most of the European mobiles surcharge 22?/minute US for mobiles...thus calls to UK mobiles on this plan are 30?/minute (8? to UK and 22? surcharge)...I know this as I use call forwarding via AT&T off of my landline when I am in Europe.

thanks for all these replies but can you tell me what this termination rate means in practice, is this what the operators pay one another ?????



<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>still waiting for andys feedback thou :meh: </span>

about what? - you asked for cheap ways to call 09 mobile - I said Call18866, and pointed out that the 2p/min I quoted applied to the CS landline number not mobiles

this isn't really the forum to discuss a wide range of cheap call providers in UK, especially after you cast doubts on other remarks I've made, including about O2 payg tariffs


There are several cheap call providers for FL mobile, but not as many as for other countries. The problems are that some account-based ones do not cover it (various Finarea companies - 1899, 18866, 18185). Others methods do, but use carriers that are not 100% reliable (many of the 0871 callthrough numbers) - and others have migrated to higher tariffs. And some mobile call-through numbers (eg on 07744 number) have discontinued it as their revenue could not cover the higher cost. If you can use VoIP at home, look at some of the Finarea operations - about 7p to 10p per minute. And you could use Enlinea or CBW of course; Enlinea's 12c charge from US is equivalent to about 7p, and you can call there for 0.5p to 2p per minute. Or use their UK 0800 number and PIN for 11p per minute.

All of this apart though, the UK mobile networks have good tariffs for either direct to foreign mobiles (Orange, O2 ITS), or 0871 call-through numbers (T-mobile [?] and 3) of 10p to 20p per minute. There was a loophole/paradox of one providers 0871 number not working, but its 0844 number did, supporting a suspicion they defined it as a landline number (or were using different carriers for the two numbers), but the last two times I attempted this it didn't work. But again, I use an 0844 number to reach the Enlinea routing number, and this is from the inclusive minutes on O2, so 7p/min on top.

I want to see more VoIP providers doing call diversion, as you could use this from a mobile - use your incoming number to divert out again, without any PC use - or also possible with other hardware at home - but some of these have raised tariffs to FL mobile a lot.

I understood... but I think that it's a german problem :construction:

Also in arabic TVs I saw a lot of times RSM numbers (+378) and a syrian friend told me that for them calling San Marino is very expensive. But this is strange too, for our (as for a Swiss with FL) it's a simple national call not a "fake" premium number.

I remember that in 1990's before "local" premium rate lines appeared in Poland, there were many party lines, lotteries and so on based in foreign locations in the "rest of of the world" zone. These lines were AFAIR in Aruba, Cape Verde, Equatorial Guinea, Israel and maybe somewhere else. From the "billing" point of view they were regular foreign numbers, but charged at very high rates (2.5-3 US$ excl. VAT, depending on the exchange rate those days). The significant part of those fees was transferred by the monopolist Polish Telecom to destination countries, making the premium rate profits possible. Because of multiple complaints, temporarily some of these destinations were even disconnected from direct dialing by 00CountryCode, and they could be reached only via the human operator.

And returning to calls to FL, here is a price list of a Polish PC2Phone(!) provider (1 EUR = 3.80 PLN, rates incl. 22 % VAT)

Liechtenstein (SVC) 9.67 PLN
Liechtenstein-mobile (SVC) 4.70 PLN
Liechtenstein-mobile 2.01 PLN
Liechtenstein 0.23 PLN

What can SVC stand for (not explained on the website)??? But it shows that some +423 (no necessarily 663) international premium rate numbers may exist....

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>ANDY </span></span>my friend, i value your contribution to this forum :thumbup:

and i do not remember casting any doubts on anything you have
said, apart from the 02 tarriff. I simply asked you to call 2211 and
listen to their new terms and conditions to see that treats are NO
longer available for new customers....

Otherwise i ask you to show me one post where i have slandered your
opinion?

thanks for the info :beer:

Service?

Not sure what that means either.

On the tel3advantage site they show 4 different Liechtenstein rates -- based on local access as follows:

Liechtenstein (presumably landline) 5 cents
Liechtenstein Freephone 25.0 cents
Liechtenstein Mobile 42.8 cents
Liechtenstein Pager 42.8 cents

Onesuite shows the following for local access:

Liechtenstein 7 cents
Liechtenstein Mobile 6 25 cents (assume the 6 is the start of the # after 423)
Liechtenstein Mobile 7 25 cents (assume the 7 is the start of the # after 423)

Most other offers stick to landline and cell only.

Stan

Thats the money what the operator terminating the call get for this service. In this case United Mobile is terminating the call in its mobile network, and they ask about 0,29 ? to all other operator routing a call to them.
So on the outgoing side, all Telecom Operator have to calculate their prices on these fees:
- Terminating fee (low for fixed networks, high rates for mobile networks)
- Transit fees (for any third-party networks the call goes through)
- Own costs (own infrastructure, personel, ...)
- A little benefit
- ?

I certainly don't have the knowledge or expertise to contradict any of this (and I am not doing so). But I gotta believe there is something else in the mix. CallBackWorld offers $.14/min to Lichtenstein. But they are familiar whith Riiing (having put in delays and such for the Riiing callback) and know many of their customers use it. I find it hard to believe they would knowingly lose that much money on each minute. Unless, I guess, they are just passing along rates from another provider. In that case, forget I said anything :)

Budget Telecom has a great price for Liechtenstein mobiles... 10 ct./minute!

Only for the customers of 4 countries, but it's a really good solution :)

- for Italy -> I Minuti ( http://www.iminuti.com/Cob/iminuti/EMinute...?partner=GS1628 )

- for France -> Les Minutes ( http://www.lesminutes.com/Cob/lesminutes/E...er=budgetcorpfr )

- for Belgium -> LesMinutes.be ) http://www.lesminutes.be/Cob/deminuten_bef...=deminuten_befr )

- for Spain -> Los Minutos ( http://www.losminutos.com/Cob/losminutos/E...er=budgetcorpes ) [0,0945 ct/min!]

They have a service for the other countries but the price is higher, about 33.ct/min :(

I used Kall8 a few times this past year to call a Riiing SIM. Cost was 12? as I recall altho the posted price was supposed to be about 20?.
Went in to cancel one of my Kall8 numbers and decided to check their pricing. While many carriers have been in the 40 to 60 cent price range, this 92 cent pricing is quite a shock. I know others here use Kall8, so I thought I would bring it to their attention.

...mike

I noticed that about a month ot two ago and so I cancelled it...I think I may have posted something about that in answer to somebody else's thread but I forget where.

When we first started discussing Riiing, I mentioned that the crazy range of pricing for calls to FL mobiles was probably an indication that many carriers simply didn't have up-to-date pricing and that things were going to have to sort themselves out sooner or later. I suspect that the other carriers in the 10c-15c range will follow suit pretty soon. But I hope not.

I have a new calling card from cloncom.com -- called cloncom connect. It seems to be tied to the NOBEL system. SUPPOSEDLY the rate to Liechtenstein Mobiles is 10.1 US cents per minute. As a side feature, it allows calling from selected foreign countries, both toll free and local #s. The local #s for Germany are the very same #s for my Enjoyprepaid service. For example, the rate for Germany to 423 6 is however $1 per minute.

The Riiing phone is not in my possession at this time and I don't want to verify this rate.

Like DRN I suspect low CBW rates to 423 6 #s will soon go the way of the buggy whip; only a matter of time.

I again mention ONESUITE with rates of 23 cents from a local # and 25 for toll free to 423 6 #s. That has already increased ONCE in the past year.

Stan

Interesting find that site, as it has other providers cards there too, like IDT. As you say, that Connect card seems to be from Nobelcom - the rates to Liechtenstein from a few European countries are $1 a minute though!

I bought the card on Ebay US at a 25% discount.

I can find no toll free # for customer service; there is one for tech support, but the could not help me with my issues. I have sent several emails to problems@cloncom.com and questions@cloncom.com -- granted, this was starting FRIDAY Dec 23. I have no answer as yet. I don't like not being able to reach a customer support person.

The cloncom connect card lets a US customer enter up to 6 domestic US phone numbers from which one can do pinless dialing. The system does however conflict with the Enjoyprepaid pinless dialing. I was getting my Enjoyprepaid balance, which was lower than the cloncom balance. I have UN-registered my home phone from the Enjoyprepaid and now the cloncom system. Also, the new local Enjoyprepaid #s allow me to access the cloncom system even though they are not listed on the cloncom site.

I have not explored other cards on the site. Let me know if see something interesting for Liechtenstein.

Stan